Curse

Brother Andicus · Jan 14, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verek

Quote: 'explain me how a monk is gonna achieve that, else then by kiting?'

OK, what about 'Pacifism' for 18 seconds target fow cannot attack - I have a feeling that would be more usfull that blind panic.

or, Reversal of Fortune, or Sheild Guardian.

There are many skills that could be used, those are just of the top of my head.

What get to me is that we a are constantly told to 'think of a strategy' to counter the, so laughably called, 'improvements'.

Why should I waist my time countering idiotic behaviour, I spend most of my time trying to do this with my kids I don't want to have to do this in my leasure time.

Congrats. Funniest post of january so far.

Pacifism is worthless trash. Any AoE damage at all will almost certainly end it. There are these really cool things called hex removals too.
AND, even if pacifism WAS a sensible skill, are you telling me you would rather stand and look at the AI for 18s unable to do anything rather than chase it for maybe half that time and kill it?
Shield guardian is an even more silly suggestion, but we wont go into that.

Verek · Jan 14, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Congrats. Funniest post of january so far.

Pacifism is worthless trash. Any AoE damage at all will almost certainly end it. There are these really cool things called hex removals too.
AND, even if pacifism WAS a sensible skill, are you telling me you would rather stand and look at the AI for 18s unable to do anything rather than chase it for maybe half that time and kill it?
Shield guardian is an even more silly suggestion, but we wont go into that.

Well I'm happy I made you laugh,

The question was ''explain me how a monk is gonna achieve that, else then by kiting?'

They might not have been great ideas i.e. Pacifism....etc but my point was that there are alternatives to just headless chickening.

We are not talking about controlled kiting the A.I. just runs around like a lunatic and that is idiotic.

The point I'm trying to make is that there a many, many skill, spells...etc inbuilt into this game other than running around.

Brother Andicus · Jan 14, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verek

The point I'm trying to make is that there a many, many skill, spells...etc inbuilt into this game other than running around.

It is a monks job to prevent and heal damage taken by their party. The best way to avoid damage from melee classes is to run away.

And yes, there are indeed many skills and spells inbuilt into the game. The fact that over 5% of them are designed to prevent characters running should tell you something. It suggests to me that for every 20 skills in your party at least one should be a speedbuff, snare or KD. Thats 3 or 4 skills in a normal 8 man party, which is hardly going to ruin anyones master plan, and will dispatch any running AI with minimal fuss.

Steps Ascending · Jan 14, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

euh... I just don't get how a thread can run for more than 3 pages when it is as simple as "The reason why I should bring a snare"...

Yet some how these are the threads that goes for the longest behind the endless "What's-your-biggest-______-ever?-style".

Muk Utep · Jan 14, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Certain enemies seem to kite when it makes no sense, though. Last time I played through Factions, naga warriors on Shing Jea Island would often start running in large, endless circles as soon as pulled. Even at full health.

reetkever · Jan 14, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

Yes, if your strategy can't factor such things in, it is deficient and should be reworked.

Oh, so your saying I should just play the cookie cutter wars? I have my own build, not the standard skills required to normally fight the stupid AI these days. Well it's barely a fight anymore, but a pure chaotic friggin flying circus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

Try reading this thread. There are skills available to all melee classes/weapons to snare opponents. And if you only get 1 hit from your run skill, you need to invest more points in it's linked attribute. Most run skills will last around 8-10s.

Yes there are skills available, but some people want to use the slots for something else that actually has a use in all times instead of situational times. In PvP, I guess you need cookie cutter builds there, but not in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

Because making them run away IS making the AI good. Doing what you described only increases the amount of mindless grind required to kill something. Making the AI creatures have more and more armour doesn't stop a brain damaged goldfish killing them, it just takes longer.

Making AI run away is NOT making them good, and I wonder what will last longer, attacking a target with more armor or chasing a monk for a friggin 10 minutes. Also, letting the monsters have more armor makes the battles FUN, and maybe even HARD instead of ANNOYING. This wasn't the problem in Tyria and Cantha, but some monsters in Elona seem to die way too easy. They could use a kind of buff.

Instead of running away which has no use at all - it's just more annoying. In PvP running might have it's uses, but in PvE it's just friggin worthless. Running for a firestorm is understandable, running for ANYTHING... it just takes longer to kill, that's it.

Alya · Jan 14, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Well it's barely a fight anymore, but a pure chaotic friggin flying circus

Quoted for truth!

Verek · Jan 14, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

I think I might concede that this could what type of style of game you want to play.

My big problem is that AI stands for Artificial Intelligence not Artificial Stupidity, try chasing a 'run away' into the side of a hill or other obstacle and it will try and burrow through rather than going around, how can this be 'Intelligent'

But once again maybe it is a style of game type of thing and maybe I should look else ware.

Sekkira · Jan 14, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Yes there are skills available, but some people want to use the slots for something else that actually has a use in all times instead of situational times. In PvP, I guess you need cookie cutter builds there, but not in PvE.

Read: I want to take in any skills and own the crap out of everything.

Noone's forcing you to take a particular build, hell, noone's forcing you to take snares, speed buffs or knockdowns. You can still win without them, it just takes longer. It's like running into Hell's Precipice with all fire skills and damage, complaining that they're strong against the element.

reetkever · Jan 14, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Read: I want to take in any skills and own the crap out of everything.

Noone's forcing you to take a particular build, hell, noone's forcing you to take snares, speed buffs or knockdowns. You can still win without them, it just takes longer. It's like running into Hell's Precipice with all fire skills and damage, complaining that they're strong against the element.

Hmmm not really. Hell's Precicipe is only a certain area, and there is a skill called Winter that is used by about everyone there. That's called cookie cutter. For 1 mission, it's not so bad, but the kiting monks are everywhere. So we just have to alter our builds and limit our options if we don't want to be at disadvantage? Welcome to the Clone Wars ~.~

Oh, and another thing. Titans don't run around like circus clowns when I have Fire magic (well except when I use firestorm :P). Every battle I go into is a pain cause I get to chase the monks all the time.

Sekkira · Jan 14, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Let me get this straight, you have no problems bringing in a cookie cutter build to deal with certain areas, yet have every problem with sacrificing one skill to deal with kiting?

Verek · Jan 14, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Having thought about it for a bit this is what I wnat when playing a melee character:

Start of conflict - Two sets of Warrior eyeballing each other, smashing their swords on shield, chanting, glaring and generally getting ready to get it on.

Support boys behind preparing to inflict there own kind of mayhem into the preceding,, the crackle of manna being readied, spells on the tip of there tongs, ready to unleash hell.

Phase one: ’CHARGE’ two set of (by now insanely aggressive) melee boy (or girls) clash, oaths are sworn, battle is joined.

What I don’t want is two set of Warriors calmly identifying the Monks then chasing them with speed buffs and every one else running around like idiots.

Gizmo Loco · Jan 14, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Wait - you're complaining that the AI is smart?

Think of it this way. Walking along the street, some huge guy comes along and punches you in the face. You gonna stand there and let him pummel away, or are you gonna run? He might still catch you up and hit you again, but thats 2 hits instead of the 20 you would get by standing still. The same applies here -if you are the AI monk and some huge warrior comes along and whacks you with a hammer, you're gonan want to run away and get hit less.

Y O U Lo Se · Jan 14, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Kiting monks even makes it easier in PvE. Put 1 hero on the monk, he keeps kiting, then kill the rest and then snare the monk and gg. Much faster then monks who are not kiting.

Alya · Jan 14, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Walking along the street, some huge guy comes along and punches you in the face.

Huh? Any appeals to real life situations in regards to fantasy computer games are totally ridiculous. Your example is flawed even more because it takes a solo-vs-solo situation, not a band vs band situation. In your case, much closer would be this picture: two teams meet, and the huge guys from both sides, instead of protecting the squishies in their teams, rush towards the weakest guys of the opposite side who start running in circles around the rest of the teams who randomly pummel each other.

Smart? As if! My kitten is smarter than that.

But it's totally, absolutely annoying.

Verek · Jan 14, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Think of it this way. Walking along the street, some huge guy comes along and punches you in the face. You gonna stand there and let him pummel away, or are you gonna run? He might still catch you up and hit you again, but thats 2 hits instead of the 20 you would get by standing still. The same applies here -if you are the AI monk and some huge warrior comes along and whacks you with a hammer, you're gonan want to run away and get hit less.

No, I don't agree not with your logic. If we were playing a game that you walked the streets and Randomly attacked a memeber of the public then yes I could possibly understand some of the behaviour, I.e. random kiting , but we’re not, this game is set in a fantasy world where all hell has broken loose, every thing and everyone one is expecting conflict.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 14, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

God forbid people actually thinking about what skills they bring in PvE for once!

If your MM/Echo SS/(Echo) Fire Nuker/BP Ranger has trouble with this perhaps you should consider changing your build shocking as that might sound...

ValaOfTheFens · Jan 14, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

The only AI change I've seen is that mobs well outside my aggro bubble and the bubbles of my NPC's have been running towards me. I went to the same place 3 times to make sure I wasn't imagining it. I used Koss to aggro the first group and then called him back to me. The second group shows up halfway through the fight with the first. They stop on the very edge of the map and then suddenly start rushing towards the battle!! No matter how far back I went the second group still found me. It wasn't a big deal at first. But then when it happened in more than one area I became angry. Its like the AI can only move in one direction now: towards me and its annoying as heck.

As for monks kiting...it doesn't matter. I usually just cast Fairthenheartness on them and leave them to Smite Hex or Convert Hex or whatever while Koss and Devona pound away at them. Monks are usually my first exploitable corpse in a battle.

reetkever · Jan 14, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Let me get this straight, you have no problems bringing in a cookie cutter build to deal with certain areas, yet have every problem with sacrificing one skill to deal with kiting?

Yes, bringing Winter for only 1 mission isn't a problem for me. But to always have 3 of the same skills (Res, Hamstring/Cripple Slash and a run skill to catch up with the monk to hit him) just sucks. Also, kiting isn't for 1 area only, it's in the entire game.

Now I only have 5 skills left, and I'm stuck with swordsmanship cause axes can't cripple.

Sekkira · Jan 14, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Yes, bringing Winter for only 1 mission isn't a problem for me. But to always have 3 of the same skills (Res, Hamstring/Cripple Slash and a run skill to catch up with the monk to hit him) just sucks. Also, kiting isn't for 1 area only, it's in the entire game.

Now I only have 5 skills left, and I'm stuck with swordsmanship cause axes can't cripple.

Bull's strike is a wonderful knockdown for kiting foes, also does some decent damage too. I've never seen anything that could even replace sprint/rush on my warrior if I decide to run it.

Also, GOD FORBID YOU HAVE TO BRING RES ON YOUR BAR